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Topic: POLL: HAL YORKE, ALBERT FLIGHT, JACK WESTON - WHO HAS THE MOST BENEVOLENT REASON FOR BEING A LIAR?

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Who has the most benevolent reason for being a liar? [10 vote(s)]

HAL YORKE
10.0%
ALBERT FLIGHT
20.0%
JACK WESTON
70.0%
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POLL: HAL YORKE, ALBERT FLIGHT, JACK WESTON - WHO HAS THE MOST BENEVOLENT REASON FOR BEING A LIAR?
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Get your brains around this one Molonians!

 

All have been accused of being, or called themselves, liars...

but

which of Damien's characters has the most benevolent reason for being a liar?

 

HAL YORKE

ALBERT FLIGHT 

JACK WESTON 

 

liar
ˈlʌɪə/
noun
 
  1. a person who tells lies.
    "the man was a notorious liar"
    synonyms:deceiver, fibber, falsifier, teller of lies, teller of untruths, perjurer, false witness, fabricator, equivocator, prevaricator, spinner of yarns

 

benevolent

 

 

VOTE in the poll above

and

comment below!

 



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Molonian
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I chose Jack because he is trying to do the best for the victims of horrendous crimes, whereas Hal, for all his charm, is probably only lying to get what he wants for himself. Albert lies because he is not the innocent he appears to be at first!

Good poll, domino.

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Nice assessment Pearl, thanks for voting and commenting.

I agree that Jack does the wrong thing for the right reasons - there is no other motive for his actions or intentions, no hidden agenda. Which is why when Martha says at the end of Series 1 "You're a liar, Jack", although we cannot help but agree that he has been deceptive/ secretive, and that within the context of being a police officer and not a super hero his actions and possible actions could not go without some sort of 'punishment', his reaction that it is unfair is also understandable.

Hal is a little more complicated.... his lying is complex, not as simple as pure selfishness, all of the time. He has lied during his blood drinking Lord Hal phases and during his sober phases, for different reasons, not all of them without care for others.

Albert's situation is also not black and white...

he was a liar, but felt huge guilt for being one too and he was also the victim of massive manipulation. Also, whenever he was tested outside of the horrible relationship with Shine and the situation he had put him in, his moral compass definitely pointed towards goodness. However he did choose to accept the benefits of Shine's protection and machinations when he was fast tracked up the police ranks, perhaps the victim of his own ambitions, yet the work he did was "good work". He came to John Merrick's defense when he was being mobbed in the street, that was the true Albert. Later on he stood by to watch while Shine ended his life, but he did not want to do that, it was not his nature. He did cover it up, but was that through fear? The next time Shine involved him in a murder, he confessed.



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Damiac
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For once I'm not choosing Hal. Shocker! Jack it is. I agree with your assessments, Domino.  



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Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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What a good poll, domino! Lots to think about here.

I agree that Jack has lied for 'good' reasons; he wanted justice for the victims. What he did was very unprofessional but it is Jack's very human reactions that endear him to us. What he did was wrong but it was an understandable reaction to an apparent injustice. But he lies to Martha to protect himself from punishment.

Hal is such a complex character. Throughout his life he has lied to get what he wants, to manipulate others but he also lies to protect and care for others. His lies to himself have dire consequences for himself and others.

And Albert, well we have no idea what is the truth and what is lies! He lies about his criminal past but he has used his role as a policeman to try to do good work which he couldn't have done if he hadn't lied. He lies to protect himself from being found out but it is from fear of Shine and not wanting to disappoint Reid. He is the only character we see expressing remorse and guilt about his lies. Jack and Hal are angry when caught out in their lies. Albert tries to do good but his lies cause tragedies like Merrick and Hinchcliffe's deaths. He lies to Evelyn to try to find out about her father to try and prevent deaths. But conversely what seems to be lies here might actually be the closest to his truth that we see. Things don't seem to work out for Albert whether he lies or tells the truth. It often seems that to Albert lying is second nature and he probably couldn't stop lying if he tried.

I think in conclusion, I would vote for Jack because his lies were for the 'best' intentions but can lies really be benevolent? All the characters cause damage either to themselves or others even if their original intention was to protect or do good. But I would give Albert credit for showing remorse.

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Damiac
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This is more tricky than it seems!confuse

---------------------------------------------

Hal lied many times for many reasons. But he also lied for his friends about things they could not understand cause he didn't want to loose them. Mentally his friends kept him straight, he also loved them.

----------------------------------------------

Albert lied because he wanted to do good work and make up his pass (and present) mistakes. He was also victim of manipulation. He had goodness in his heart and he regret deeply about his lies. He also lied for a woman, because he didn't want her to get hurt because of him.

----------------------------------------------

Jack lied because he wanted justice. He wanted to catch the bad guy. He knew who was guilty but without evidence he could not actually do anything. It was about children and he was ready to loose his job so he could get the responsible one behind bars.

-----------------------------------------------

So, which one had the most benevolent reason to lie? Good question domino, good question!approved

I have to think about my answer, I have been analyzing lot these characters but not in this point of view. 



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Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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I think I may have done lovely Albert an injustice with my comments yesterday. Saying that lying was second nature to him may have suggested that he lied with malice which is not what I meant. Lies and deception have been very successful survival strategies for Albert and I think if he felt under threat it would be a default for him; a difficult habit for him to break. As he says himself, without a family to guide him he doesn't always know what's right. Albert is the most kind-hearted out of the three characters. His struggles have given him real compassion for the suffering of others. Unfortunately although he wants to be a good man and do the right thing, his lies have terrible consequences for other people which could have been avoided if he had come clean sooner.

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Damiac
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Interestingly worded question, domino.  Most benevolent reason.....not the most justifyable reason. I'll have to think about this one (lol!) but my first reaction is that I don't agree with everyone else! 

I do think you can make a case for the fact that Jack's motivation may have been founded in a belief that he was doing the right thing when he attempted to plant the evidence.  But he didn't succeed.....so, in many ways, he didn't need to lie to Martha - fessing up would not have affected the investigation.   The lie was not to catch the bad guy.....he lied to save his own skin.  He lied to avoid being sacked, suspended, or - at the very least - being taken off the case.



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Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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This is why it's such a difficult poll! Can lies ever be for benevolent reasons? We all lie to protect others from being hurt (little white lies) but saving your own skin is probably the most common reason to lie. All three characters lie to save themselves but I guess we are having to decide whose lies were least damaging to others. Jack's lies only seem to have consequences for himself - his relationship with Martha and his career - because he didn't go ahead with planting the evidence.

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I voted Jack for basically all the reasons stated already.  He does lie "for the right reasons", or at least he had in mind to do something wrong, but for the right reasons.  His lie, as fifi pointed out, was to save his own skin.  But it also wasn't a lie that affected anyone else, ultimately.  I would also like to point out that we've only seen Jack lie once, (besides any manipulations he might have done in interviews - I'm sure at times it becomes necessary to say things to Suspects in hopes of getting them to open up) whereas Flight lied many times to cover his tracks, and with deadly consequences.  And then there's Hal... well, you can barely believe anything that comes out of his mouth... well that's not entirely true, Hal doesn't exactly lie about everything.  He just tends to be circumspect and leave things out. 



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100% vote for Jack Weston so far!

 

 

Who has the most benevolent reason for being a liar? 

HAL YORKE
jw_full_left.gifjw_stretch_left.gifjw_full_right.gif
0.0%
ALBERT FLIGHT
jw_full_left.gifjw_stretch_left.gifjw_full_right.gif
0.0%
JACK WESTON
jw_full_left.gifjw_stretch_left.gifjw_full_right.gif

100.0%

 

 


Not voted yet?

 Click your selection in the poll at the top of this thread!



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DMF
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very cool discussion guys...
You make an interesting point about Albert, Rosie and Jozie... he lied in order to do good work. And I agree, he is a good man with a good heart, ultimately. But there is a bigger context I would argue, and as tortured as he was by the situation (and a victim as a few of us have pointed out) he kept his confessions to a confidential confession box for a long time before actually confessing - to allow him to do good work, but he was allowing some very bad work, by others, to continue too. It felt to me that Flight was not fully aware of the extent of Shine's evil doing. But he was aware that he had been sent to spy. Yes, there was a level of denial and naivity that despite all of that he could do good work, but on the other hand he was a very smart, cocksure young man, and not at all stupid.

"but can lies really be benevolent?" Good question Rosie... but as fifi pointed out, worded deliberately as 'most benevolent'.... *evil cackle*..... Not benevolent but on the scale towards benevolence, if there is such a thing! I was going to say least malevolent... but this way was more thought provoking.

Oh good point fifi, Jack lied because he knew he had done something wrong procedurally that could get him in hot water. I was more annoyed that he wasn't honest with Martha than the fact he tried to fix some evidence, because she had gone out of her way to give him so many chances and when his antics were questioned higher up than her she covered for him, which he showed not gratitude for. So his intended 'wrong doing' for the right reason is not relevant... it the fact he didn't tell her the truth. for no benevolent reason whatsoever...

suspects2ep4-11 - Copy.jpg


whimsy you make a good point too, about the quantity of lying, that has to be relevant!

I find myself question how much sympathy i feel for each of these characters lying. I actually sympathise with Albert and Hal (in his 'good' phases) more than Jack! Albert was so troubled... and never was there a more tortured creature than 'good' Hal there are times when he withheld the truth that made my heart ache because he was so tortured by what he had done... and even though it was self preservation, he also did not want to hurt others with the truth...

 

 

HalEp4-28.jpg

HalEp4-29.jpg

 

And there were lies that were more understandable than others....

hals5ep5-15.jpg

 

 

But, there were many versions of Hal... and even when not bad old Lord Harry in full force, he did tell some unforgiveable lies...

hals5ep5-63a.jpg

hals5ep5-81.jpg

hals5ep5-83.jpg

hals5ep5-93.jpg



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Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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And may I say domino some excellent pictures which illustrate your points quite beautifully ;o)

All this talk of Albert is giving me Flight feels...

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well they say a picture speaks a thousands words Rosie - I'd do well to remember that and use less!

What  a gloriously complex character Flight is - naivity, innocence, denial / intelligence, complicity, guile.

 

ripperstreet160.jpg

ripperstreet159.jpg

ripperstreetep4-12.jpg

ripperstreetep4-16.jpg

ripperstreetep7-14.jpg

ripperstreetep7-16.jpg

ripperstreetep7-23.jpg

ripperstreetep7-24.jpg

ripperstreetep7-26.jpg

ripperstreetep7-34.jpg

ripperstreetep8-14.jpg



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Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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Aww Flight! I miss him :( Despite his lies...

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Damiac
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Hmmmm??  Wha.....?  What were we talking about?



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DMF
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I have no idea fifi... too busy looking at Bertrand.. I mean Lemonade... I mean Albert....

ripperstreetep7-17.jpg

(I am going to pretend this screen cap is wildly revelant to the topic and the poll! )



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GAAAAAHHHHHHH...

Hhhot.  It's hot in here.  Can someone open a window?

I need to rewatch Ripper Street sometime.  Poor sweet puppy dog Flight...



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Damiac
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I can't decide who to vote, for some reason unknown after reading your comments I forgot what I was about to say..
There are also lots of unexplainable drool on my phone's screen.
Let my gather myself. I have been thinking about my answer but there are some good arguing going on and I'm not sure will I want to vote my first choice.

They all have been lying for good reasons, but there is always other side of the coin.. They all have been same time lying for selfish reasons, cowardly reasons..

Albert cause lots of damage when he was lying even he had good reason to lie..
Hal hurt his friends badly cause of his lies even he had good reason to lie..
Jack disobey the rules/laws and failed his boss, causing lot trouble for her even he had good reason to lie..



-- Edited by JozieMozie on Tuesday 23rd of September 2014 04:15:22 AM

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muahahahaha! evileye 

 

 



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Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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Love how this has become a delicious Flight-fest!



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Damiac
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If we're looking at a sliding scale towards benevolence, even taking into account the quantity of lying that each character does, I still can't vote for Jack, because even though he only lied once....his lying failed 100% to register on the belevolence scale!

I have been desperately searching my memory to find an example of Hal lying for some benevolent reason....and the only one I can think of is that he lied to Crumb that he was able to live a 'full and happy' life without blood - a lie intended to stop Crumb from despairing...as he eventually does when he realises the futility of their situation!  There may be other times when he lied having convinced himself that is was for the good of others, but I think that ultimately his lies are a means for him to manipulate people for his own benefit.  Please, please, somebody give me an example of when Hal lies genuinely for the good of others!

Although Flight's lies are primarily to protect himself, there is one shining example of when his lies are not only indended for good, but are actually successful......when he lies to Evelyn.  It is also the time when he is probably the most truthful! (up until his final confession to Reid....).  He lies to Evelyn in order to get close enough to her to find out what her father is doing.  This lie is of no benefit to himself - indeed it seems that he would much rather be truthful with Evelyn - and ultimately it saves the lives of all the people who turn up to see the presentation. 

So at the moment I'm leaning towards Flight..... But I'm not going to vote just yet, because I want somebody to defend Hal! Please....somebody...!!

 



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DMF
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fifi how about withholding the truth from others, does that count as lying? if so, see my Hal screencaps above! Annie asked him not to tell her things because she would rather not know... or how about when she wanted to believe the parchment was not made of human flesh... or how about when Leo and Pearl got their doors and he told them he would be fine....

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Damiac
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I was going to vote for Jack first, but then again after thinking, I'm not going to.

Oh fifi, I would want to defend Hal and here I go:

Hal was once human and human lies are more like what Jack's and Flight's lies are like. Goals of those lies are based on human nature. When Hal turned into a vampire, his nature changed, he wasn't human anymore.

I'm thinking about human nature vs. vampire nature. I mean, when Hal was human I don't think he could have been able to kill people just like that without feeling anything.

When Hal stopped drinking blood, his human nature came out and he felt guilty about his doings, but constantly his vampire nature was shadowing his every step.

So, when Hal lies for his friends or enemies, he is lying for humanly reasons. But, there's always his vampire nature controlling his sayings and doings. He is in constant pain and self control, something that will affect his actions, even his lies. 

So basically, every time "good Hal" lies, he's trying to protect his human part, his friends, his friendships, I think those are very benevolent reasons to lie. Everything he holds dear so and don't want to lose and became "bad Hal" again.

When Hal is bad, and he is lying, it's more like lying for surviving. Those are heartless lies in heartless life. So when he is trying to protect his good life he has, and being more human, he lies on the way, but never wanted to hurt his friends by those lies, but protect them and himself for staying good.

Flight and Hal remind each other very much.



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I want to give Hal some Kia-Ora

Marvellous Molonian Moderator
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Fifi, Flight's lies to Evelyn do ultimately save lives but the way he manipulates her affections to get what he wants is not very kind. Admittedly Albert does feel bad about this but he puts his work above Evelyn's feelings. Although we would like to think what he tells her about himself is true, his motives are not truthful. I guess we have to weigh up which is the lesser of two evils.



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